tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post16789340982700185..comments2023-06-28T05:54:47.372-04:00Comments on Music 000001: 234. The Baseline Scenarios -- part 10: Hunting & GatheringDocGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-28842383632890123622009-11-04T02:01:42.745-05:002009-11-04T02:01:42.745-05:00Thus the dates for the advent of the Neolithic kee...<i>Thus the dates for the advent of the Neolithic keep getting moved backward in time as more is learned</i>. <br /><br />I have a 1980s book right here that gives 11-8000 years "B.C." to the foundations of Neolithic such as , which is essentially the same as we do now (9500-8000 BCE per Wikipedia after putting Natufians and other pioneers in their Mesolithic place). <br /><br />Actually it seems to me that the figure is moving towards the present if anything, after Natufians are not anymore considered Neolithic as such (and there are no other major changes). <br /><br />What may be moving backwards a bit is the earliest manifestations of transitional Mesolithic in some areas. But this is far from clear at the moment.<br /><br />Of course, we may be missing some minor occasional semi-domestication instances in previous stages, and in this you are right, but overall, if a people changes to a neolithic way of life, they show it in their fossil registry in form of modified domestic animals (mostly different from their wild counterparts) and grains, as well as in specialized tools like sickles (often pottery too). And indeed, stable residences such as villages. <br /><br />Overall the picture is hardly mistakable, though Mesolithic transitional peoples like the Natufians show some of this stuff (villages, sickles) but not others (clearly modified domestic animals or grains, artificially selected for their better produce). <br /><br /><i>But I'm trying to be logical and at this point can see no logical reason why they could not have done a certain amount of herding way back then</i>.<br /><br />It's not totally impossible (cf. the mystery case of the Magdalenian engraved horse heads with apparent brides) but I have never so far of any other case. Instead we do know of peoples who practiced all the time pure foraging (though with some modifications like the intentional use of fire), including Australian Aboriginals, Hadzabe, etc. Occam's razor should be used here, IMO. <br /><br />There was some study not too long ago that determined that the first (pre-Bantu) Neolithic arrival to Southern Africa must have carried some minority genetics to the Khoikhoi (Hottentots), who did indeed adopt herding eventually. But this is a cultural import, not something genuine.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-35716588443425225172009-11-03T22:45:36.941-05:002009-11-03T22:45:36.941-05:00Maju: "Farming and herding do tend to leave a...Maju: "Farming and herding do tend to leave a lot of related evidence like distinctive animal remains and maybe farming tools."<br /><br />I'm not well enough versed in archaeology to argue the point, but you have to admit, Maju, that archaeologists do tend to make assumptions, which tend to be overturned when new evidence is discovered. Thus the dates for the advent of the Neolithic keep getting moved backward in time as more is learned. <br /><br />I'm not in love with the idea that HBP could have been herders (or farmers) and I doubt very much that they were. But I'm trying to be logical and at this point can see no logical reason why they could not have done a certain amount of herding way back then. If it was on a small scale, or if these bands were themselves very small, then very little if any evidence might have survived. <br /><br />It's not a terribly important point for me, but I am trying to be consistent and avoid making assumptions, so I feel I have no choice but to at least consider this possibility.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-87883085253669836652009-11-03T18:50:46.513-05:002009-11-03T18:50:46.513-05:00Is there any fossil evidence that supports herding...Is there any fossil evidence that supports herding before Neolithic anywhere (excepting maybe the highly controversial engraved Magdalenian horses)? <br /><br />No, other than the dog. <br /><br />Farming and herding do tend to leave a lot of related evidence like distinctive animal remains and maybe farming tools. There's nothing of that before Neolithic and that's why Neolithic is what it is. <br /><br />Do the huts prove anything? Maybe but I prefer to rely on fossil evidence.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com