tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post4512591709516530437..comments2023-06-28T05:54:47.372-04:00Comments on Music 000001: 307. Aftermath 22: Australia and New GuineaDocGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-58485259473779282982010-02-08T21:52:51.175-05:002010-02-08T21:52:51.175-05:00"but in SE Asia, Melanesia and Central and So..."but in SE Asia, Melanesia and Central and South America we find a variant, where melodic displacement is characterized by loose rhythmic coordination."<br /><br />When it comes to kinship, you seem to believe that the "loose" historically precedes the "rigid," as evidenced by one of your earlier posts: "All the above suggests that HBC may have had either a very flexible and loosely defined kinship system..." (smiley face.)German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-55952922243663939712010-02-08T21:22:16.421-05:002010-02-08T21:22:16.421-05:00"If Lomax was right, then both Australia and ..."If Lomax was right, then both Australia and North America could be regarded as huge refuge areas for peoples who originally might have dominated much of East Asia generally, from the south to the north."<br /><br />And to add to this: there's a very clear common footprint uniting the kinship systems of Na-Dene, Uto-Aztecan and some other Amerindian groups in North America, on the one hand, and Australian aborigines, on the other. When I read Underhill et al. 2001, in which they linked Y-DNA haplogroup C lineages of the Na-Dene Indians with those of Australian aborigines, I thought it was heck of a match. These kinship systems are almost non-existent in Northeast, East and Southeast Asia, although Northeast Asian ones are direct derivatives of those that are fully attested in North America and Australia. Notably, the kinship systems of the Paleosiberian peoples are outside of this cluster, although Saami may be part of it.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-28106739914132045832010-02-08T21:00:47.630-05:002010-02-08T21:00:47.630-05:00"If Lomax was right, then both Australia and ..."If Lomax was right, then both Australia and North America could be regarded as huge refuge areas for peoples who originally might have dominated much of East Asia generally, from the south to the north."<br /><br />Yes, this is exactly how I would interpret it. I would, quite predictably, push it even further to argue that North America is the refugium of the original inventors of this style (otherwise we would have to attribute the origin of this style to places in Asia in which no instances of it survived, which is quite ephemeral), but we can just leave it as is for now.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-399926700808781842010-02-08T20:03:26.604-05:002010-02-08T20:03:26.604-05:00"It's possible that Austronesian panpipes..."It's possible that Austronesian panpipes are/were traditional but it's also possible that they are due to borrowings from native Melanesians."<br /><br />What I observe in kinship is that Austronesian and Papuan systems are often very similar. And this is not the case of diffusion. I learned how to distinguish them but the difference is often highly nuanced, rather than sharp and clear-cut. Diversity is definitely greater among Papuan systems (that's why if you look at them in bulk and then look at Austronesian systems in bulk you'll see which one is which) but if you take one "interesting" system from an Austronesian sample and one from a Papuan sample, they will be very similar. The Austronesian system would be only one or two steps away from the Papuan system.<br /><br />It seems that a bulk of Papuan systems came from the same ancestral population as the Austronesian systems, only much/somewhat earlier.<br /><br />At the same time, there are Papuan kinship systems (such as those found in the small Tor family) that are just like those found in Pama-Nuyngan populations, especially those in the Cape York Peninsula.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-86758500241774295762010-02-08T09:39:25.523-05:002010-02-08T09:39:25.523-05:00German: "I'm not sure I agree with the id...German: "I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Australian aborigines represent a later arrival to the Sahul. The one-beat iterative unison style has a more patchy distribution, with wider gaps, in the Circumpacific area. If Australian aborigines represented a more recent wave of colonization of the Pacific, as compared to the "Papuan" populations, then we would expect to find the one-beat iterative unison style much more frequently in Asia and Australasia."<br /><br />This is indeed a difficult issue, which I'll be struggling with in my next post.<br /><br />"Lomax places Australian aborigines within his "Circumpacific style" with a root in northeastern Siberia and offshoots in America. This style, he writes, "once stretched uninterruptedly from Siberia south to Australia""<br /><br />Back up to the beginning of the sentence: "In East and Southeast Asia the rise of high Chinese, Indo-Chinese, Malaysian and Polynesian high culture obscure a tradition that seems to have once stretched uninterruptedly from Siberia south to Australia." If Lomax was right, then both Australia and North America could be regarded as huge refuge areas for peoples who originally might have dominated much of East Asia generally, from the south to the north.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-24771587263172484702010-02-08T09:18:54.473-05:002010-02-08T09:18:54.473-05:00German: "Could you explain in greater detail ...German: "Could you explain in greater detail the difference between P/B style and "canonic-echoic"? As far as I remember, CE isn't found in Africa but is found in South America. Papua New Guinea combines both."<br /><br />Melodic displacement, aka "canon" or "round" is one mode of polyphonic interaction characteristic of P/B. Canons or rounds can also be found in many other parts of the world, but in SE Asia, Melanesia and Central and South America we find a variant, where melodic displacement is characterized by loose rhythmic coordination. Because this variant style, which I call "canonic-echoic," appears to be completely absent from SSAfrica, I attribute it to the effects of the "Toba" bottleneck event. However, it could be due to some other bottleneck that occurred after the Out of Africa exodus. <br /><br />"Panpipe ensembles found among Austronesian-speakers in Melanesia... Do you interpret them as borrowing/substrate effect from Papuans or they are part of "Western Polynesian" musical tradition?"<br /><br />That's an excellent question. Also a very complex one, since the Austronesians also have Out of Africa roots, some of which could go back very far. Some Austronesian speakers in Melanesia have panpipe traditions, yes. And there is historical evidence of panpipes in parts of Polynesia as well, though none appear to have survived long enough to have been recorded. It's possible that Austronesian panpipes are/were traditional but it's also possible that they are due to borrowings from native Melanesians. The distribution and history of panpipes is something I need research more fully. The information is there but it is scattered all over the place.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-64924139653243422062010-02-06T19:53:25.430-05:002010-02-06T19:53:25.430-05:00"in New Guinea, descendants of the original &..."in New Guinea, descendants of the original "Negrito" settlers, possibly with a degree of Australoid intermixture.."<br /><br />I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Australian aborigines represent a later arrival to the Sahul. The one-beat iterative unison style has a more patchy distribution, with wider gaps, in the Circumpacific area. If Australian aborigines represented a more recent wave of colonization of the Pacific, as compared to the "Papuan" populations, then we would expect to find the one-beat iterative unison style much more frequently in Asia and Australasia. <br />It seems likely that "Australoid" culture and biology was once more widely spread in Asia and America (compare the various connections between Fuegians and Australian aborigines, especially in terms of their skull robusticity) but, outside of America, survived in isolation in Australia.<br /><br />Lomax places Australian aborigines within his "Circumpacific style" with a root in northeastern Siberia and offshoots in America. This style, he writes, "once stretched uninterruptedly from Siberia south to Australia" (Factors of Musical Style, 37). So, we have breathless solo shared between Circumarctic and South America and iterative one beat unison between Australia and North America. Both are branches within your type B.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2808406058173173703.post-59712748891153014352010-02-06T18:16:37.703-05:002010-02-06T18:16:37.703-05:00"The first such family consisted of "Gro..."The first such family consisted of "Groups Exhibiting Strongest Association with African Pygmy/Bushmen style," i.e., those groups most closely associated musically with the culture of the original Out of Africa migrants (HMC). A second family was characterized by a variant of P/B style that I've called "canonic-echoic."<br /><br />Could you explain in greater detail the difference between P/B style and "canonic-echoic"? As far as I remember, CE isn't found in Africa but is found in South America. Papua New Guinea combines both.<br /><br />"The last category, corresponding to group 4, was "Groups Exhibiting Strongest Association with Western Polynesia," with typically Polynesian characteristics, such as "polyphonic group vocalizing in either rhythmic unison . . . or some form of simple antiphony, with good to excellent tonal blend, medium interval width, wordy . . ."<br /><br />Panpipe ensembles found among Austronesian-speakers in Melanesia... Do you interpret them as borrowing/substrate effect from Papuans or they are part of "Western Polynesian" musical tradition?German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.com