5. In an article titled Gene Flow from the Indian Subcontinent
to Australia: Evidence from the Y Chromosome, by Alan Redd et al., 2002, the authors present "strong evidence for an influx of Y chromosomes from the Indian subcontinent to Australia . . . " (the Y chromosome is found only in males and can represent only male lineages):
to Australia: Evidence from the Y Chromosome, by Alan Redd et al., 2002, the authors present "strong evidence for an influx of Y chromosomes from the Indian subcontinent to Australia . . . " (the Y chromosome is found only in males and can represent only male lineages):
In sum, we found that 50% of the Y chromosomes sampled from aboriginal Australians share common ancestry with a set of Y chromosomes that represent less than 2% of the sampled Indian subcontinent paternal gene pool. The similarity among C* chromosomes is unlikely to have been caused by chance convergence because we genotyped ten independent STRs. The observed pattern is not specific to central Australians, since our sample also included individuals from the Great Sandy Desert and from Western Australia, and our estimate of the frequency of C* chromosomes agrees remarkably well with other studies of greater numbers of aboriginal Australian Y chromosomes in Arnhem Land, the Great Sandy Desert, the Kimberleys, and the Northern Territory. (676 -- my emphasis).
While only 2% of the male gene pool for India might seem insignificant, it's important to remember that the C* haplogroup is found only among certain tribal peoples in south India and Sri Lanka (where we find many australoid types today). It would be very strange indeed if the figure were much higher than 2%, since Australian aborigines bear little physical or cultural resemblance to East Indians generally. However, the figure shoots up to 50% in Australia, a remarkably strong representation. While the Y chromosome represents male lineages only, the authors refer to an earlier study in which "affinities between Australian Aboriginal People and mainland southern Indians were suggested based on maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA" (673).
Figure 2 from this paper represents the worldwide distribution of Y haplogroup (hg) C:
The segments in red represent subhaplogroup C* (or C root), which was the focus of this study. Remarkably, one can trace the migration of C* from its first appearances, in south India and Sri Lanka (SRL), through Southeast Asia (SEA) and East Indonesia (EIN) to the Australia Aboriginal People (AAP), where it is present in fully half the male population sampled.
While these results are indeed impressive, the connection they found may be relatively recent. According to their estimates, C* dates only to the mid-Holocene, roughly 8,000 years ago, which places this particular migration well past both the Out of Africa exodus and the Toba eruption. Since the paper dates from 2002, and much has since been learned about the distribution of the C haplogroup, it's possible that these results may have been superseded, but if so I'm not aware of it. If anyone reading here has more up-to-date information on the distribution of C in India and/or Australia, I'd like very much to see it.
6. A much more recent paper, Reconstructing Indian-Australian phylogenetic link, by Satish Kumar et al., published in July 2009, sees a connection on the female line, as represented by mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA):
Background: An early dispersal of biologically and behaviorally modern humans from their African origins to Australia, by at least 45 thousand years via southern Asia has been suggested by studies based on morphology, archaeology and genetics. However, mtDNA lineages sampled so far from south Asia, eastern Asia and Australasia show non-overlapping distributions of haplogroups within pan Eurasian M and N macrohaplogroups. Likewise, support from the archaeology is still ambiguous.Results: In our completely sequenced 966-mitochondrial genomes from 26 relic tribes of India, we have identified seven genomes, which share two synonymous polymorphisms with the M42 haplogroup, which is specific to Australian Aborigines.Conclusion: Our results showing a shared mtDNA lineage between Indians and Australian Aborigines provides direct genetic evidence of an early colonization of Australia through south Asia, following the "southern route".
Moreover, "The divergence of the Indian and Australian M42 coding region sequences suggests an early colonization of Australia, ~60 to 50 ky BP, quite in agreement with archaeological evidences." In this case, the coalescence dates are within range of both Out of Africa and Toba.
However, the investigators were able to match only 7 individuals from India with 6 from Australia, a far less convincing result than the 50% representation for C* throughout Australia generally, as found in the Y chromosome study.
7. It would be much easier to argue for an Indian-Australian cultural connection if there were any distinctive musical similarities between Tribal India and Aboriginal Australia, but so far I haven't found any. (Unfortunately, the music of Tribal India has not been studied or even recorded as thoroughly as that of other indigenous populations, so I may have missed something -- though I doubt it.) However, I recently came across a remarkable Youtube clip of dancing among the Chenchu hunter-gatherers of South India that strongly resembles Australian Aboriginal dancing:
While the very opening contains some interesting moves, the most remarkable similarities with Australia can be found at the 1:30 and 2:30 marks. (Ignore the pretentious commentary.)
Here's a Youtube clip of Australian Aboriginal dancing for comparison:
Stephen Oppenheimer writes as follows of the Chenchu, in connection with the M2 haplogroup and its possible relation to the Toba eruption:
The eldest of [the] many daughters [of haplogroup M] in India, M2, even dates to 73,000 years ago. Although the date for the M2 expansion is not precise, it might reflect a local recovery of the population after the extinction that followed the eruption of Toba 74,000 years ago. M2 is strongly represented in the Chenchu hunter-gatherer Australoid tribal populations of Andhra Pradesh, who have their own unique local M2 variants as well as having common ancestors with M2 types found in the rest of India. Overall, these are strong reasons for placing M’s birth in India rather than further west or even in Africa.(to be continued . . . )
The connection with North America, along the same lines of haplogroup C is much stronger than with India. And the similarities in music and dancing are much more concrete. The videos are interesting, nevertheless. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteWhat lines of Haplogroup C, German? Any references you can share?
ReplyDeleteSimilarities between Australian and N. American music are there, no question. But also some important differences as well. The problem is that there is, once again, a gap -- between Australia and N. America. I don't know of any other instances of similar types of singing and playing anywhere, with the possible exception of some very isolated cases, some of which are in Melanesia, but very few in Asia. And in this case, I don't have any clues to help me explain that particular gap. If I find any I'll post them here, I can assure you.
As far as dancing is concerned, there are also some very interesting similarities between Aus. and N. Amer, yes. Especially the emphasis on footwork, stomping, relatively rigid, usually upright body, etc. But there are also important differences too. I see very few differences between the Chenchu and Arnhemland clips though, they seem much closer to me than anything I've seen from the Americas. On the other hand there is only so much mileage you can get from comparing two brief film clips -- and this is an area I've never really studied -- though Lomax certainly did.
You're welcome.
"What lines of Haplogroup C, German? Any references you can share?"
ReplyDeleteI expounded on the genetic connection between Australia and North America in my comment to your previous post. here it is again:
"Hmm... What about the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup C: one branch in North America (C3b), another in Australia (C4). This is not an exclusive North American-Australian connection but it doesn't have to be. The important thing is that it's very specific. On the mtDNA end, haplogroup S, which is found at high frequencies in Australia, is part of macrohaplogroup N, which in term pops up in North America in the form of haplogroups A and X. Just like Y-DNA haplogroup C, X isn't found in South America, A is more frequent in North America and has its highest frequencies among the Na-Dene (who also have Y-DNA C3b at the highest frequencies). Again, there's something very specific here, although macrohaplogroup N is not restricted to North America and Australia of course. Your musical evidence can possibly tied to these genetic signatures with a further hypothesis that other instances of the same vocally tense musical style got lost from or evolved into something else in Northeast and Southeast Asia. Had this style survived more broadly in Asia, we would have had an even better parallel with the distribution of the Y-DNA and mtDNA lineages.
What I find fascinating (and correct me if I am wrong) is that this vocally tense style is the exact opposite of vocal interlock because an ensemble simply can't sing polyphonically if everybody's voices are tense."
"But there are also important differences too. I see very few differences between the Chenchu and Arnhemland clips though, they seem much closer to me than anything I've seen from the Americas."
I was rather struck by the similarities between Australian and North American dances. The whole dancing/singing "combo" is very similar. I'm not an expert, but I've been to numerous powwows in the U.S. and in Europe. But again my opinion may be very subjective.
"The problem is that there is, once again, a gap -- between Australia and N. America. I don't know of any other instances of similar types of singing and playing anywhere, with the possible exception of some very isolated cases, some of which are in Melanesia, but very few in Asia. And in this case, I don't have any clues to help me explain that particular gap."
That's why you need a theory of musical evolution. The Asian gap could be the result of the evolution of some solo and unison traditions away from the Australian/North American style. BTW, what about Saami musical style(s). A few mentions of them that I find always bring up similarities between Saami and North American Indian "chanting." This in fact concerns yoiks, which you seem to interpret as more of an "African signature."
German: "I expounded on the genetic connection between Australia and North America in my comment to your previous post. here it is again:"
ReplyDeleteOops, sorry, I guess I forgot about that one.
"This is not an exclusive North American-Australian connection but it doesn't have to be."
I think it probably does. All sorts of populations share haplogroups.
"What I find fascinating (and correct me if I am wrong) is that this vocally tense style is the exact opposite of vocal interlock because an ensemble simply can't sing polyphonically if everybody's voices are tense."
There's no reason why they can't as far as I can see. But it does seem as though polyphony and relaxed voices do go together for the most part, not in principle, but in fact. There are exceptions, however.
As far as the American-Australian connection is concerned, it interests me very much and has for some time. I wrote about it in my "Echoes" essay:
"The musics of the native Australians and North Americans reveal certain very interesting similarities, via a stylistic tendency I will call “unison/iterative/one-beat" . . . Despite some significant differences, possibly due to later bottleneck events (most likely precipitated by the last Ice Age) the many similarities between Australians and Amerindians could be evidence of a post-Toba survivor nexus centered somewhere in South Asia, one branch eventually heading southeast to populate Australia by 50,000 or 60,000 years ago; the other gradually making its way northeast, to eventually settle in Beringia until the waning of the Ice Age, thence making its way into North, and also parts of South, America."
The problem is that I could never find any trace of this style in Tribal India and only bits and pieces in East Asia, so the connection remains elusive. It still interests me, however, so any lead you can provide are appreciated. The dancing of the Chenchu does help, so I'm glad I found that clip.
"what about Saami musical style(s)."
ReplyDeleteThe Saami have a very different style, though there are some melodic aspects that might reflect a connection with N. America. They are part of the huge Paleosiberian reindeer "herder" complex, musically as well as culturally. Almost all the music recorded from these groups tends to be solos, with some very distinctive qualities that make it clear the traditions are connected. But not to the Americas. The only strong connection there involves the throat singing tradition, which we find among Paleosiberians, Ainu and Inuit. But not among Amerindian groups. Nor the Saami either, as far as I know.
But Paleosiberian music may once have involved more group singing than what has been recorded, it's hard to know for sure.
"I think it probably does. All sorts of populations share haplogroups."
ReplyDeleteBut we are not arguing for an exclusive Australian-American trans-Pacific connection. Of course, other populations besides Australia and North America will be in the mix. You would like the distributional gaps to not exist but when they indeed don't, you don't believe your eyes. if you have some musical traces connecting Australia and North America in East Asia, then it only supports the Y-DNA evidence.
"The problem is that I could never find any trace of this style in Tribal India and only bits and pieces in East Asia, so the connection remains elusive."
Same for panpipe ensembles: you have them in Europe, you have them in Oceania and America but not in India.
German: "That's why you need a theory of musical evolution."
ReplyDeleteAs I see it, the groundwork for such a theory can already be found in "Echoes." And an elaboration of that can be found in this blog, especially in the phylogenetic tree I presented in Post 12. The relation between Australia and the Americas is encapsulated in the relation between B3a1 and B3a2, which are both rooted in B3a, "Unison, Iterative, One-Beat," which is in turn rooted in B3, "Social Unison." If my tree is correct, then the origin of all the substyles one step up from B3 would be very deep, with B3 itself originating in a very early post-OOA "bottleneck" event, possibly due to Toba, a Tsunami, drought, etc.
As I see it, every point of divergence on the tree is most likely due to a bottleneck event of some kind, rather than the sort of gradual "evolutionary" processes you seem to prefer -- and are expecting me to produce. Imo, the latter type of evolution is more characteristic of more specialized societies, of the sort we find in the Neolithic and beyond, where individuals compete and cultural innovation is associated with survival.
I'm speaking of non-material culture, by the way, since the development of objects such as tools and weapons is always associated with survival, even in hunter-gatherer societies.
German: "Same for panpipe ensembles: you have them in Europe, you have them in Oceania and America but not in India."
ReplyDeleteThe panpipe ensembles, along with very similarly organized ensembles of pipes, flutes, horns, gongs, stamping tubes, gongs, etc., are very distinctive, relatively easy to spot and clearly related historically (thought not everyone would agree, admittedly). B3a, on the other hand, is far less easy to spot and far less distinctive -- and it's much harder to make an argument on this basis for a clear historical link. You do have a point, however, and this is certainly a matter worth investigating and something I hope to investigate more thoroughly in future.
"The panpipe ensembles, along with very similarly organized ensembles of pipes, flutes, horns, gongs, stamping tubes, gongs, etc., are very distinctive, relatively easy to spot and clearly related historically (thought not everyone would agree, admittedly."
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt the global signature Lomax and you identified has a common historical origin. The question is, of course, the directionality, the integration of these ensembles in the societies and the complexity/simplicity dimension - the questions that are not clear to me.
You're probably going to discuss America later but I would like to point you to "Music and Culture Areas of Native California, by Richard Keeling" // Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology, 14(2), 1992. This this work Keeling argues that vocal polyphony in the form of counterpoint is found throughout California and constitutes the ancient heritage for this region. He sides with Lomax vs. Nettl in interpreting polyphony as an archaic practice and not the feature of culturally complex societies. This fits your argument for a coastal migration of "P/B style" into the Americas (some archaeologists argue for a coastal migration all the way down into Chile as well)
I'm totally fine with having two traditions in the Americas, which is consistent with other evidence. But I still can't see how vocal polyphony can morph into North American-Australian tense vocalizing and the Toba argument makes it even more puzzling.
Another remark by another scholar regarding North American Indian music caught my attention as well.
"American Indian music is uniquely consistent among world cultures
in having singers accompany themselves with percussion of some sort. This contrasts for instance, with many African traditions where a small chorus of singers might stand apart from a rich polyphonic array of drums accompanying them. (P. 727, Locating the Seri on the Musical Map of Indian North America Author(s): Thomas Vennum Jr. Source: Journal of the Southwest, Vol. 42, No. 3, Seri Hands (Autumn, 2000), pp. 635-760.)
I don't know how this observation fits in your tree, but any cultural pattern that involves a sharp contrast between America and Sub-Saharan Africa will be consistent with the other sciences (especially, genetics and odontology, for which global data is clearly regionally structured).
The sharp contrast observed in musical styles (between Africa and North America+Australia, with some survivals in South America, PNG and East Asia) doesn't seem to map onto the geographies immediately affected by the Toba effect.
So, if your argument is that Toba introduced a sharp break into the musical geographies and created a decidedly different musical style, one would expect this new distinct musical tradition to be very visible in India. However, this old alternative tradition (preserved in North America and Australia and apparently lost in East Asia) lies further out East.
German: "I have no doubt the global signature Lomax and you identified has a common historical origin. The question is, of course, the directionality, the integration of these ensembles in the societies and the complexity/simplicity dimension - the questions that are not clear to me."
ReplyDeleteWell, as you know, for me the directionality is determined by my acceptance of the Out of Africa model. Moreover, I find that theories of musical change stemming from that model appear to satisfy Occam's Razor quite nicely, at least most of the time. Since you reject OOA, the directionality is going to be different for you, which can make it difficult for us to communicate -- at least some of the time, not always.
As far as the integration of these ensembles and vocal styles into the culture as a whole, I think certain traditions can come to function essentially as survivals per se, especially if they are seen as associated with the ancestors, and need not always be integrated with the cultural context generally. So the cultural role that such practices play can vary quite a bit from group to group, depending on its history.
As far as complex to simple is concerned, I have no particular model in mind one way or the other. The earliest monophonic traditions may well have started out as very simple and become more complex over time, I have no problem with that possibility. But for me all the evidence points to complex polyphony/ interlock as an essential ingredient of HBC and since that's my baseline that becomes a kind of de facto starting point for everything since.
But obviously P/B did not appear out of nowhere and probably began with something much simpler, of course. So for me there is no rule that we must go from the complex to the simple, it's just that I'm following the evidence and what I see is evidence that all music now in existence in the world of today (aside from primate vocalizations) in all likelihood had its origin in P/B, which is a pretty intricately organized style, yes. But I also think that P/B itself had its origin in something much simpler, probably stemming from primate vocalizations. All this bothers you because you expect some hard and fast rule, and sorry but I don't see such a rule, only an emerging history.
German: "Keeling argues that vocal polyphony in the form of counterpoint is found throughout California and constitutes the ancient heritage for this region."
ReplyDeleteYes, and this is reflected in the Cantometric data. It's very interesting since the Hupa can sound a bit like Ainu. But the California traditions are unique in N. America, as far as I can tell.
"He sides with Lomax vs. Nettl in interpreting polyphony as an archaic practice and not the feature of culturally complex societies. This fits your argument for a coastal migration of "P/B style" into the Americas (some archaeologists argue for a coastal migration all the way down into Chile as well) "
Yes, I think the coastal model is becoming more and more accepted and it makes a lot of sense to me. The NW Coast Indians are a part of this too, as they have a greater array of different types of musical instruments than just about any other N. American society -- north of Mexico that is.
It looks to me like the earliest Paleoindians could have been the descendants of the original Out of Africa migrants, taking their coastal migration into the Pacific, up the east coast of Asia, then down the west coast of the Americas -- possibly splitting up around the Isthmus of Panama and following three different coasts from there on. This would have happened very early, probably prior to the LGM.
"I'm totally fine with having two traditions in the Americas, which is consistent with other evidence. But I still can't see how vocal polyphony can morph into North American-Australian tense vocalizing and the Toba argument makes it even more puzzling."
The Toba argument makes it easy to see how such a change could have taken place. Because a genetic bottleneck, if severe enough, can certainly have major cultural repercussions. But I've never claimed that anyone went from complex polyphony to the complex and very sophisticated unison/ one-beat / iterative style of Australia and N. America. It seems more likely that the bottleneck would have tended to isolate people and also make them more competitive, which would have discouraged group performances generally, and could have produced what was at first a relatively crude type of solo singing -- and playing. Then as things got back to normal, people would have again joined their voices, but since the polyphonic tradition was lost, they would have wound up singing in unison. Makes sense to me.
German: "So, if your argument is that Toba introduced a sharp break into the musical geographies and created a decidedly different musical style, one would expect this new distinct musical tradition to be very visible in India. However, this old alternative tradition (preserved in North America and Australia and apparently lost in East Asia) lies further out East."
ReplyDeleteOriginally I pinpointed India, but after studying the genetic literature it seems more likely that most if not all the colonies in India would have been wiped out, so the effects of the bottleneck would have originally been felt most strongly to the east of India. One or more of such groups probably migrated west, back into India -- they would have been the earliest Indian tribals, and as we see, their music is much simpler than P/B and also mostly unison, though in some cases with simple polyphony as well. The Australian style would probably have developed to the east of India, with some of these Australoid peoples eventually migrating southwest to south India (and Sri Lanka) and another group heading east to eventually wind up in Australia.
And by the way I've been looking into the distribution of the C haplogroup, at your suggestion, and I want to thank you because I do see a possible way in which Australia and N. America could be connected genetically, via that set of markers. This connection would not be easy to establish on musical grounds, but the possibility is there and it's interesting.
"Since you reject OOA, the directionality is going to be different for you, which can make it difficult for us to communicate -- at least some of the time, not always."
ReplyDelete"The Toba argument makes it easy to see how such a change could have taken place."
Yes, these are the two places where we diverge radically. I'm fine with out of Africa as a hypothesis on par with Multiregional, but not as a fact. There are too many assumptions, inconsistencies and gaps that make me doubt that humans came out of Africa via a bottleneck.
Oppenheimer's (or your) Toba argument makes out of Africa even less acceptable. The late peopling of the Americas argument adds another speculation on top of the other two, as it involves another bottleneck argument and another catastrophic argument (Paleoindians are supposed to have been locked in a Beringian refugium to allow the distinctive, non-Asian, features of their genes and cultures to incubate.) I may be overthinking it and asking for too much literal and direct proof for the three hypotheses, but without demanding such a proof (and without exploring a radical alternative to counteract the other "stories") I don't know how to engage in an scholarly inquiry at all.
"Originally I pinpointed India, but after studying the genetic literature it seems more likely that most if not all the colonies in India would have been wiped out, so the effects of the bottleneck would have originally been felt most strongly to the east of India. One or more of such groups probably migrated west, back into India -- they would have been the earliest Indian tribals, and as we see, their music is much simpler than P/B and also mostly unison, though in some cases with simple polyphony as well. The Australian style would probably have developed to the east of India, with some of these Australoid peoples eventually migrating southwest to south India (and Sri Lanka) and another group heading east to eventually wind up in Australia."
This is a very solid and fact-sensitive interpretation, Victor. I'm happy that we've moved a needle eastward a bit.
"And by the way I've been looking into the distribution of the C haplogroup, at your suggestion, and I want to thank you because I do see a possible way in which Australia and N. America could be connected genetically, via that set of markers. This connection would not be easy to establish on musical grounds, but the possibility is there and it's interesting."
I'm a bit surprised that haplogroup C isn't found anywhere in Central and South America (especially, since you claim that the one-beat unison style is found in South America). However, South American Indians do have pre-CDE (Y*) paragroup sequences at low frequencies (Bortolini et al. 2003), which fits my argument.
And thanks for expounding on some aspects of your vision of musical evolution.
"This connection would not be easy to establish on musical grounds, but the possibility is there and it's interesting."
ReplyDeleteI keep forgetting to ask you: is there any special connection between "breathless solo" and "one-beat iterative unison"? Also, in terms of musical instruments, I believe, there's a clear connection between hand-drums in Northeast Asia/Northern Eurasia and in North America (a connection that extends all the way down to the Mapuche of Chile). Does percussion of this kind play a special role in the one-beat iterative unison style?
"The earliest monophonic traditions may well have started out as very simple and become more complex over time, I have no problem with that possibility. But for me all the evidence points to complex polyphony/ interlock as an essential ingredient of HBC and since that's my baseline that becomes a kind of de facto starting point for everything since."
ReplyDeleteI've been reading # On Instrumental Origins of Lithuanian Polymodal "Sutartinės" by Austė Nakienė // Studia Musicologica Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, T. 44, Fasc. 1/2 (2003), pp. 159-168. She proposes that some of the complex aspects of vocal polyphony emerged as a result of influence from instrumental polyphony. So, my question is, to put it in a very blunt form: is it possible that originally vocalizing was monophonic, while instrumentalizing was polyphonic, and then one influenced the other, so that some populations became only monophonic and others only polyphonic?
Victor,
ReplyDeleteFYI: a recorded instance of moiety-based polyphony, or incipient polyphony in Australia. I understand this may be an anomaly but thought it was still worth bringing up.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SiFoDH0LMDEC&pg=PA163&dq=moieties+polyphony+australia&cd=2#v=onepage&q=moieties%20polyphony%20australia&f=false